Category: Performance Events ¤ Author: Gail Fisher ¤ Title: Perfection in Obedience ¤ Dave asked: >>>I have been reading with interest the different views on the clicker training by some out there who are far more learned than I on this clicker method. As a competitive trial person how do you rate this method when you come down to the nit-picking little events that make the difference between a 196 or a 199. Do you find you can refine your dog via the O/C method. Would you say it is a longer process generally? Any feedback & or proof that this method has been taken to that length by anyone..I love the idea of the method but wonder about this degree of perfection..<<< In all honesty (says she, awaiting the flames ) I think the jury's still out on this question. I know there are a growing number of people who are claiming great performances with clicker training, but as you know as an obedience judge, one judge's 198 is another judge's 189. Before the flame throwers are lit, please understand I'm not saying that the performance claims are flawed, just that there are too many variables to answer Dave's question at this time. The issues are many -- first, how many *purely clicker trained* dogs are even ready for competition yet? I don't have one. My dog is a crossover dog, so even if I went out tomorrow and got a 200 (highly unlikely ), would it be because of clicker training? Who can say? Second, how many trainers of *any* method, actually have the complete package to get 200's. The complete package includes so many things. To mention just a few -- a dog that can perform to that level (having to do with more than just training methodology), a handler that has the skills to put in a 200 performance, a handler that has the time/energy/inclination/desire to work that hard, has done all the distraction training, etc. etc. etc. etc. You're asking my opinion, and I will say that I do believe consistent (that's the key!) 198+ performances are possible with clicker training. While it hasn't yet been proven in the competitive arena (to the best of my knowledge), here's what I've experienced. One of our instructors, Wendy, trained her young Golden bitch with a top (some say *the* top) competition trainers. After 8 months of heavy attention work including drilling, working, popping, etc. etc., Wendy asked me for help with forged heeling -- Cruiser was wrapping. So we took the leash off (we do as much clicker training off leash as we can -- we find it work MUCH faster), and lo and behold what we found was that Cruiser didn't have the foggiest idea of what she was supposed to do. She was nowhere near heel position -- not even in her prior wrapped position. So Wendy and I worked for about 5 minutes, and in that time -- working off leash remember -- we got Cruiser prancing at heel -- proper heel. Then we worked on automatic sits, which Wendy had been doing with the Come-up-sit stuff previously written about. Again, Cruiser had no clue as to what she was supposed to do once the heavy guidance of the leash was gone. So we spent another 6 or 7 minutes working on that -- and got success. Not just good sits -- great ones -- fast, straight, correct placement, head up. Now, clearly the job was not over. Cruiser had spent a lot of time with prior learning, and Wendy, using nothing but clicker training, has had to work very hard to overcome the problems created by that. But after 8 months of heavy-duty competition training, she was nowhere. Now she is on her way to great performances. You ask if clicker training is slower than traditional. On the contrary, I think it is so much faster it almost defies belief. Wendy is also training a new puppy. By 14 weeks of age, she was prancing at heel, off leash, head up in perfect attention position for a distance of 50-60 feet. All done with clicker training. Can that be done with traditional methods? Most traditional attention classes require a dog to be at least 10 months of age before even *starting* attention work. I wrote a month or so ago about another of our students who had asked me for help on her Drop on Recall. She had been training for years with traditional (top competitor's) methods, and she had a slow drop. Within less than 2 minutes with clicker training, we got the drop as fast as if she had been shot. I know many people *fear* that clicker training is slower, but the reality is that it is so much faster, it doesn't even compare. For example -- for Gary's advanced seminar that we're having here in March, he posted on his web page that for a dog to participate in the seminar, they should be clicker trained and able to do a 10 yard go-out. On reading this, one of the attendees wrote to me asking what she should do if her dog isn't doing that yet. I responded suggesting that she take 10 minutes and teach it to her dog. I was not being facetious. Honestly, that's all it takes! Of course that's the *big* picture -- not including a tight turn and quick, straight sit -- the difference between a 96 and a 98 performance. But I truly believe that a good trainer can do it all with a clicker. One of the biggest differences (aside from the whole science versus method thing ) is that with traditional, you start with a flawed behavior and correct it to make it better. For instance, you start with a sit, any sit. Then you correct to get it faster. And you correct to get it straighter. And you correct to get it at heel. And you correct to get it in front. Whereas with clicker training, if it ain't right, it just doesn't get clicked. The dog figures out for him/herself what is gonna get clicked. And once the dog has figured it out, the dog does it again, and again, and again. I think the fear of a crossover trainer (like me -- and you) is that when you're used to *making it happen* (as with traditional training), clicker training is the great and scarey unknown. The thought of waiting for an offered behavior sounds as if it would take forever. The idea of watching for small incremental movements and building on them is uncertain. The reality of even considering surrendering total physical control is frightening. But you know what? When you actually do it, it's so incredibly fantastic as to be virtually indescribable. Clicker training is still in its infancy. What it will take to gain the credibility you are asking about is years of dedicated clicker trainers some of whom are or become highly competitive. The highly competitive people are not drawn to clicker training yet, IMO. They want the *proven* methods. And that isn't clicker training . . . yet! Until there is either someone who is highly competitive who discovers clicker training, or someone who is dedicated to clicking who becomes competitive, we will remain the poor (but happy!) cousin. OK -- I'm vacating the soap box. Next?! Gail -- Gail Fisher The All Dogs Gym (tm) Manchester, NH 03103 gail@alldogsgym.com (603) 669-4644 FAX (603) 641-6767