Category: Conformation ¤ Author: Carol Dunster ¤ Title: Standing Square ¤ >Gary, thanks for your advice, that sounds helpful. I have taught him to >target on my hand as in Sue's instructions. The basic problems I'm = having >with his legs is that I am supposed to pull his back legs out until the >bottom bone is straigt up & down, while his front legs are straight >underneath him & up on his toes. If I pull his back legs back , than his >front legs get out of postition. I think that you are probably not breaking this down and actually training him to position each leg separately with a cue. Try for a more square stance until you can get him in position (all four legs square with rear slightly back). Don't worry about getting him up over his front until he can stand square - these are totally separate exercises. If you are trying for the whole position before he understands each part, you will be having trouble, particularly if it is not natural for him. If you are "pulling" his legs back, you are making him "A frame", or rock backwards with his center of balance. You are probably over stretching him. It is easy to do. That is why I recommend standing him more under himself until much later in his training. Then, when you train him to push himself forward over his front, his rear will come vertical. It is not the stretching that makes the rear up and down, it is the push over the front. Believe me - this is one place I *know* my business... (over 20 years of winning show dogs). >Esp because he's flatfooted (on the front) >& needs to be on his toes. Basically I'm not sure when to click and how to >use him targeting my hand. Because its such an unnatural position for = him >to stand in (esp the back legs) he doesn't put his feet in the right = place >on accident to click for it. I think the position is unnatural because you are asking him to stretch too far. A good show stance should be pretty close to the dog's natural stance, just slightly exaggerated. Train him three main things: 1) To stand still without moving his legs when in a stand that he chooses for gradually increasing lengths of time. The cue might be to focus on your outstretched forefinger of your right hand. 2) To stand squarely on his four feet. You may, as Sue suggests, teach him to put each foot into position on cue. His left rear leg may be "one" and you start by clicking when it is in the general vicinity of where you want it. When he is putting it pretty much where you want it, get a bit fussier and when he is regularly putting it in good relationship to his body, give it a cue - "one" and c/t him for the cue and the position together. Then add his other back leg, "two" and train him to put it in position (in relationship to his body) that you want. I would think that when you get the two back legs to go into position separately on cue, you can cue "one", "two" and c/t when they both go square and in position. Remember not to go for and extreme here, just a nice square stance. You do not have a highly angulated breed and he is probably pretty big and heavy - he will look off and get too tired if he is over stretched, even if he could do it... So, once you are able to cue "one, two" and have him straighten up his rear (not stretched out behind him!), add the cue "rear" before the "one, two" and he will soon do the whole thing on cue. Then you will add "three" - his left front leg. Ignore the rear legs and c/t him for having that leg in a nice position under neath him. Get that on cue and work on "four". When he will work "three" and "four" on cue, try the "three, four" cue to work up to "front" (as long as you are not going to use that cue for obedience...). Don't add names until he is doing it right in each case. One way to start getting the front after you have the rear is to start it after the back feet will line up straight ("rear" cue) and cue the rear (BTW, you should work on duration of this cue after you teach it - he needs to learn how to hold it, too.). Then you can walk the front forward with the leash - gently pull him forward at an angle, so that the weight will come off of one front foot and he will be slightly off balance. When his foot comes forward, c/t. You can move the other front foot the same way. If he looks awkward after you get his front feet forward, you may be going too far.. Have an experienced handler check your work to be sure that you have the right positions as you go - it can be hard to tell when you are working the dog what it looks like from a distance. Attend some AKC shows and watch the positions of the dogs to see what they do and how they do it. Study conformation... 3) Teach him to go up over his front. This is entirely separate from the work as to holding still and putting his feet where you want them. Get him standing square and comfortable on cue, then have him target on your hand just barely in front of him, so that he stretches a tiny bit forward and up without moving. C/t and jackpot! Gradually shape him to stand squarely and reach a bit farther. Also ask him to reach forward and up at a level that he is doing and teach him some duration exercises. Shaping for more reach and for more duration are separate exercises. To get a really elegant look, you will improve his outline by shaping his head position as well. Get him with head up and nose just slightly down for the best effect... Any really cute expression will work when working on expression. Does he need to hold his tail up? Shape that separately (probably last) by c/t any upward movement of his tail when moving or standing. >The past few days I've started working him on >his table outside (with holding his head up since he knows that) to work >him around distractions. That is useful. Teach him to stand up over his front on the table, too. >Thank you for any help. Agin this past weekend I was told to smack him = on >the nose with his leash to teach him. I so much want to show these = people >a different way. Please don't give in and do that! When you get the hang of this, he will look so much better than the other dogs, they will be totally jealous and begging you to tell them how.... If they are still speaking to you, that is! Carol Dunster Carwyn Silky Terriers cdunster@agritel.net http://users.agritel.net/~cdunster One rate long distance:http://www.cditelecom.com/5962701