Category: Advanced Stuff ¤ Author: Dani Weinberg ¤ Title: Punishers vs. NRMs ¤ Sue's Bidurfee is very helpful. Just one minor disagreement. I find it useful to make a distinction between a Bidurfee that eliminates a behavior and one that changes a behavior. Both contain useful information for the dog, but the second one also urges the dog to try something else with the implicit promise that there *is* some other behavior that I will R+ ("Goodurfee"?). In my mind, that's what an NRM is, much more than it is a punisher. It's a conditioned marker comparable to the CR that tells the dog something like: yes, reinforcement is available but not for that particular thing you just did, so please try something else. I'm thinking that this distinction is helpful for beginning students/pet owners, enabling them to see the difference between a "Bad dog" and a "Try again" signal - and, hopefully, to start transforming some of the "Bad Dogs" into "Try Agains" - IOW, reframing these into training opportunities (instead of simple scolding opps). Dani Dani Weinberg Albuquerque, NM 71044.3715@compuserve.com